Obama _was_ a success

Chat Conversation Start August 26, 2013 3:28 pm Hey Charles ... I hope that you aren't offended by this question. I am just trying to understand. Does some of your support of Obama derive from a desire of showing racial solidarity, under the hypothesis that because Obama is black, his administration must be viewed as a sucess, or this country will never elect another African American? If so, I can somewhat sympathize with that position, though I think that its counter productive towards real equality. Again, please don't take offense, but I don't understand how an anti-capitalist/anti-imperialist can still support Obama. His goals, I think, are contrary to your own. I consider him a threat to equality, peace, and impediment to the end of human exploitation. Anyway, we don't have to agree, but I don't get it. August 26, 2013 5:29 pm Yes, part of what u say: "because Obama is black, his administration must be viewed as a sucess ". However , so much of future Black Presidents, but because on the terms of mainstream or bourgeois American politics and history , he _is_ a success. The tea Republican rhetoric is lying; although the re-election shows that he will be considered successful. Why would he be re-elected if not successful. The more importants reason related to white supremacy for supporting Obama is the huge minority of _white_ voters who support him through two elections ! This is an extraordinary blow to white supremacy. I always focused on this as he was elected and into his beginning. Of course, there was no guarantee he would "succeed" however defined. And then some how the tea Party movement had an awful lot of white people going against him and based on the rankest racist shit and lies. So, there is this split in white people. Yet, he got re-elected. And that was largely through the intervention of class in the election. Thank Occupy Wall Street for initiating that and then the 47% found by undercover working class agent. The current objective situation forecloses entirely an anit-capitalist/anti-imp;erialist becoming President. So, one must support the best capitalist candidate. Also, overthrowing capitalism frontally is not even in the minds of the working class, the 99%. A Marxist, which I am, takes all these factors and others into account. As a historical example, Marx and Engels supported Lincoln, a capitalist and not even an abolitionist, over Fremont who was an abolitionists, because of all the objective factors at that concrete time. Your claim that he is a threat to all that is not at all clearly true. The exact opposite may be the case in some areas , probably all three you mention. August 26, 2013 10:57 pm Fair enough, and thanks for answering honestly. I have issues with Obama, clearly. I supported him, and I feel like I got screwed for doing so. His willingness to support austerity cuts, his expansion of the police state, and his illegal war activities have been the final straw for me. Like I said, its okay to disagree. The only thing that I ask, is that you don't group me up with his opponents on the right. Their arguments are generally invalid and are often just made up. Mine are based on progressive values. Anyway, if you can make the rest of his term without turning your back on him, I'll give you a homemade cookie and will wash your shoes. I don't think that I'll be paying up.... August 27, 2013 7:41 am Yes, that was something of a short answer I gave, but I think it gets the main idea. I know ur position comes from progressive values. I'm on a left email list for 15 years where there are plenty like you who criticize him "from the left", but in the current situation, it doesn't matter what your motive is. Objectively u are giving "aid and comfort to the enemy". It doesn't matter as much now that he is re-elected. And it is even positive now , because as Obama himself said (and I repeat to y'all often) change comes from the bottom up; and , a la FDR, "now go out and make me do it". Some of the criticisms are based on lack of understanding of the President's powers, as with Guantanamo, where he tried to close it but, the law was such that Congress could prevent him and they did. Those types of blaming Obama by the left are really , really stupid and dangerous, based on ignorance of the law. The left needs to get more precise; they kind of give themselves a pass on some of the subtleties of US govt. because it's "evil". But we have to deal in the real world. The other main part is failure to accept or whatever that there is a fascist trend in the tea Party; and there is a real difference between O and them. Dems and Reps as Tweedledee/Tweedle dum is a dumb political concept at this point. And of course somebody is going to win the election and it isn't going to be a third party. So, just giving it up to the budding fascists is not ok. You can be sure I won't be changing my mind on this , but I'll pass on the cookies :>) August 27, 2013 11:30 am " Objectively u are giving "aid and comfort to the enemy" The enemy is the ruling class and Capitalism. Obama works for both. The Republicans aren't the enemy, they are the proletariat (as awful as some of them can be). "The Workers Unite". The Dems and Reps focus on identity politics. Not to say they are not important, but those are used to divide the workers. Keep us bitching among ourselves so to not revolt against our masters. Both parties are simply a distraction. (Believe me, I don't like this anymore than you do, as a gay man, I am subjugated to oppression by traditionalists and Christians of the right). The Dems are just as bad, because they are owned by the bourgeois as well. Maybe they have no intentions of becoming the stooge of rich people, but that is what happens once you claw into that world. This is exactly why I moved away from being a Social Democrat. You cannot legislate this kind of injustice away and you cannot compromise with Capitalism. You cannot reform the system, by using the system, because the system is a sham. Dems vs Reps = Distraction Workers vs Ruling Class = Ding Ding Ding I am now convinced that true equality will not come until we have international socialism and capitalism becomes a thing of the past. That means the proletariat must unite! To each his own.... August 27, 2013 1:37 pm Obama is mixed. He also represents the working class. He is contradictory, like most Dems since FDR. See the list of things done I gave. Today the tea Republicans are represent the bourgeoisie only. Dems vs Rep is not a distraction. It is where the struggle is today. Not participating in the electoral arena is to get distracted. August 29, 2013 1:51 pm You can participate in the electoral arena for strategic purposes, but identity politics is a distraction used to divide the proletariat. Once the capitalism and the bourgeois is over thrown, then we can more easily deal with identity politics. Until then, there will always be inequality. You have to unite with Republicans first, and settle our difference later. Attacking them is attacking yourself and your own interests. Believe me, I don't like it any more than you do.....as a gay man, the oppressive crap I have to deal with is real and disgusting. I'm not one to say don't vote, as I think that is pointless. However, you don't have to support the people you vote for either. I voted for Obama twice, but I don't support him. I voted for moderate war and oppression, rather than for severe war and oppression. Still get screwed either way. Whoever you vote for will be bribed and become someone's puppet. Obama, while well intentioned (I'm not even sure that is true, but he's a good actor), but once he got elected he became an enemy of the people. You support Democrats, you support your overseers....by extension, whether intended or not. That doesn't mean you can't vote on a single issue or to repel the worst evil, but support? NEVER! Obama is Uncle Tom... ...for the modern age. 13 hours ago This is a serious question, not a setup, and I'm extremely curious. Do you believe that Obama is working for real change, behind the scenes? about an hour ago Uncle Tom was an undercover good guy, conductor in the Underground Railroad. Sambo was the bad Black characer in _Uncle Tom's Cabin_ . So, yes in the sense of undercover good guy for our side, yes Obama is an Uncle Tom. That comment was from over a year ago, and I regret saying it. . The problem with white privilege, is that even well intentioned people enable racism, because they are ignorant of the mechanics that propagate it. I have since been corrected. My sincerest apologies for using that phrase, when what I meant at the time was an economic traitor. I am a work in progress. Thank you for answering my question. How come it just popped into my inbox now. I'm not sure. It's dated August of 2013. It's a continuation of an old discussion. If you scroll up, you can see the context. Regardless, I was wrong to use that phrase. When I messaged you last night, I saw it and cringed. To be honest, I wish you would had corrected me at the time, because I went on to use that phrase once more, and was corrected. It's an example of how white people use language that they think is harmless, when in reality it's racist. Although I detect the racism in language far better today, then before. I suppose it comes easier to me now, because I recognize all of the patriarchal language that is used against me. Anyway, my apologies for that. My question last night was sincere, and I hope you are correct. Anyway, my sincerest apologies. You were one of the voices that helped to radicalize me, and I would hate it if my own personal ignorance severed ties. I know you started to hide your comments from me probably as a result. Or maybe you thought I would pounce on every pro-Obama post. Nor do I blame you, as I have recently seen others like David try to play down white privilege ... and I imagine it's something you have always dealt with. What I was expressing at the time, was my severe frustration with Obama (whom I voted for twice). Over the last year, I have learned a lot. One thing, for example, is that racism = white privilege (because it's the only type of racism that is enforced and imposed by law). These are understandings that I lacked a year ago. When I brought up the message box to send you that message last night, I saw the previous conversation and just cringed. I cannot stress how sorry I am for ignorantly using that term. Due to recent events, and a little research, I am starting to believe that Obama has been on our side, this entire time. And as I said, I hope you are correct .... I'm not religious, but I pray you are correct. I congratulate you on a profound advance in working class and socialist consciousness, comrade. We will win; yes we will. We must win, and thank you for your understanding and teaching. Gloria Northcross Jenkins commented on Our Mother of Perpetual Help's photo. Christopher Carrico commented on your link. Scott Burkett via Ayn Rand collected Social Security What she said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Would make a lot of snakeskin boots. Thomas Moe Seay commented on his own link. Helen Hynes likes Daily Kos's link. Robbie Suga Pie commented on Lashandra Reynolds's status. Ryan Baker commented on Vietnam Veterans - The Real Heroes's photo. Joseph Middlebrook commented on Shira Abel's link. Kathleen Cunningham likes Bruce Bartlett's status. Nickey Eskew likes her own status. M.k. 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Again, please don't take offense, but I don't understand how an anti-capitalist/anti-imperialist can still support Obama. His goals, I think, are contrary to your own. I consider him a threat to equality, peace, and impediment to the end of human exploitation. Anyway, we don't have to agree, but I don't get it. August 26, 2013 5:29 pm Yes, part of what u say: "because Obama is black, his administration must be viewed as a sucess ". However , so much of future Black Presidents, but because on the terms of mainstream or bourgeois American politics and history , he _is_ a success. The tea Republican rhetoric is lying; although the re-election shows that he will be considered successful. Why would he be re-elected if not successful. The more importants reason related to white supremacy for supporting Obama is the huge minority of _white_ voters who support him through two elections ! This is an extraordinary blow to white supremacy. I always focused on this as he was elected and into his beginning. Of course, there was no guarantee he would "succeed" however defined. And then some how the tea Party movement had an awful lot of white people going against him and based on the rankest racist shit and lies. So, there is this split in white people. Yet, he got re-elected. And that was largely through the intervention of class in the election. Thank Occupy Wall Street for initiating that and then the 47% found by undercover working class agent. The current objective situation forecloses entirely an anit-capitalist/anti-imp;erialist becoming President. So, one must support the best capitalist candidate. Also, overthrowing capitalism frontally is not even in the minds of the working class, the 99%. A Marxist, which I am, takes all these factors and others into account. As a historical example, Marx and Engels supported Lincoln, a capitalist and not even an abolitionist, over Fremont who was an abolitionists, because of all the objective factors at that concrete time. Your claim that he is a threat to all that is not at all clearly true. The exact opposite may be the case in some areas , probably all three you mention. August 26, 2013 10:57 pm Fair enough, and thanks for answering honestly. I have issues with Obama, clearly. I supported him, and I feel like I got screwed for doing so. His willingness to support austerity cuts, his expansion of the police state, and his illegal war activities have been the final straw for me. Like I said, its okay to disagree. The only thing that I ask, is that you don't group me up with his opponents on the right. Their arguments are generally invalid and are often just made up. Mine are based on progressive values. Anyway, if you can make the rest of his term without turning your back on him, I'll give you a homemade cookie and will wash your shoes. I don't think that I'll be paying up.... August 27, 2013 7:41 am Yes, that was something of a short answer I gave, but I think it gets the main idea. I know ur position comes from progressive values. I'm on a left email list for 15 years where there are plenty like you who criticize him "from the left", but in the current situation, it doesn't matter what your motive is. Objectively u are giving "aid and comfort to the enemy". It doesn't matter as much now that he is re-elected. And it is even positive now , because as Obama himself said (and I repeat to y'all often) change comes from the bottom up; and , a la FDR, "now go out and make me do it". Some of the criticisms are based on lack of understanding of the President's powers, as with Guantanamo, where he tried to close it but, the law was such that Congress could prevent him and they did. Those types of blaming Obama by the left are really , really stupid and dangerous, based on ignorance of the law. The left needs to get more precise; they kind of give themselves a pass on some of the subtleties of US govt. because it's "evil". But we have to deal in the real world. The other main part is failure to accept or whatever that there is a fascist trend in the tea Party; and there is a real difference between O and them. Dems and Reps as Tweedledee/Tweedle dum is a dumb political concept at this point. And of course somebody is going to win the election and it isn't going to be a third party. So, just giving it up to the budding fascists is not ok. You can be sure I won't be changing my mind on this , but I'll pass on the cookies :>) August 27, 2013 11:30 am " Objectively u are giving "aid and comfort to the enemy" The enemy is the ruling class and Capitalism. Obama works for both. The Republicans aren't the enemy, they are the proletariat (as awful as some of them can be). "The Workers Unite". The Dems and Reps focus on identity politics. Not to say they are not important, but those are used to divide the workers. Keep us bitching among ourselves so to not revolt against our masters. Both parties are simply a distraction. (Believe me, I don't like this anymore than you do, as a gay man, I am subjugated to oppression by traditionalists and Christians of the right). The Dems are just as bad, because they are owned by the bourgeois as well. Maybe they have no intentions of becoming the stooge of rich people, but that is what happens once you claw into that world. This is exactly why I moved away from being a Social Democrat. You cannot legislate this kind of injustice away and you cannot compromise with Capitalism. You cannot reform the system, by using the system, because the system is a sham. Dems vs Reps = Distraction Workers vs Ruling Class = Ding Ding Ding I am now convinced that true equality will not come until we have international socialism and capitalism becomes a thing of the past. That means the proletariat must unite! To each his own.... August 27, 2013 1:37 pm Obama is mixed. He also represents the working class. He is contradictory, like most Dems since FDR. See the list of things done I gave. Today the tea Republicans are represent the bourgeoisie only. Dems vs Rep is not a distraction. It is where the struggle is today. Not participating in the electoral arena is to get distracted. August 29, 2013 1:51 pm You can participate in the electoral arena for strategic purposes, but identity politics is a distraction used to divide the proletariat. Once the capitalism and the bourgeois is over thrown, then we can more easily deal with identity politics. Until then, there will always be inequality. You have to unite with Republicans first, and settle our difference later. Attacking them is attacking yourself and your own interests. Believe me, I don't like it any more than you do.....as a gay man, the oppressive crap I have to deal with is real and disgusting. I'm not one to say don't vote, as I think that is pointless. However, you don't have to support the people you vote for either. I voted for Obama twice, but I don't support him. I voted for moderate war and oppression, rather than for severe war and oppression. Still get screwed either way. Whoever you vote for will be bribed and become someone's puppet. Obama, while well intentioned (I'm not even sure that is true, but he's a good actor), but once he got elected he became an enemy of the people. You support Democrats, you support your overseers....by extension, whether intended or not. That doesn't mean you can't vote on a single issue or to repel the worst evil, but support? NEVER! Obama is Uncle Tom... ...for the modern age. 13 hours ago This is a serious question, not a setup, and I'm extremely curious. Do you believe that Obama is working for real change, behind the scenes? about an hour ago Uncle Tom was an undercover good guy, conductor in the Underground Railroad. Sambo was the bad Black characer in _Uncle Tom's Cabin_ . So, yes in the sense of undercover good guy for our side, yes Obama is an Uncle Tom. That comment was from over a year ago, and I regret saying it. . The problem with white privilege, is that even well intentioned people enable racism, because they are ignorant of the mechanics that propagate it. I have since been corrected. My sincerest apologies for using that phrase, when what I meant at the time was an economic traitor. I am a work in progress. Thank you for answering my question. How come it just popped into my inbox now. I'm not sure. It's dated August of 2013. It's a continuation of an old discussion. If you scroll up, you can see the context. Regardless, I was wrong to use that phrase. When I messaged you last night, I saw it and cringed. To be honest, I wish you would had corrected me at the time, because I went on to use that phrase once more, and was corrected. It's an example of how white people use language that they think is harmless, when in reality it's racist. Although I detect the racism in language far better today, then before. I suppose it comes easier to me now, because I recognize all of the patriarchal language that is used against me. Anyway, my apologies for that. My question last night was sincere, and I hope you are correct. Anyway, my sincerest apologies. You were one of the voices that helped to radicalize me, and I would hate it if my own personal ignorance severed ties. I know you started to hide your comments from me probably as a result. Or maybe you thought I would pounce on every pro-Obama post. Nor do I blame you, as I have recently seen others like David try to play down white privilege ... and I imagine it's something you have always dealt with. What I was expressing at the time, was my severe frustration with Obama (whom I voted for twice). Over the last year, I have learned a lot. One thing, for example, is that racism = white privilege (because it's the only type of racism that is enforced and imposed by law). These are understandings that I lacked a year ago. When I brought up the message box to send you that message last night, I saw the previous conversation and just cringed. I cannot stress how sorry I am for ignorantly using that term. Due to recent events, and a little research, I am starting to believe that Obama has been on our side, this entire time. And as I said, I hope you are correct .... I'm not religious, but I pray you are correct. I congratulate you on a profound advance in working class and socialist consciousness, comrade. We will win; yes we will. We must win, and thank you for your understanding and teaching.